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Old 01-17-2006, 12:07 PM   #21
brownjenkins
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kinda busy, but read this article lief... it gives some good insight into some of the ideas surrounding the force

obviously, interpretation is up to you... but saying that the force is "a good, personal, intelligent God with a will of its own." is very much your own personal interpretation
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Old 01-17-2006, 01:46 PM   #22
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Is there a blue moon out? I have to agree with BJ on this one, Lief. The Force is impersonal - or so I have thought since the 1970's.
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Old 01-17-2006, 02:55 PM   #23
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Ive always thought of the force as equal parts spiritual and equal parts physics. I was slightly disappointed when Lucas chose to flesh it out to the midi-chlorian level. Did we really need that? To me it was sort of this ‘spiritual gravity’ if you will. That worked fine. Now it has a physiological root and I dont know if that works as well for me.

Furthermore, I dont even know if its consistent with the original three Star Wars films. Remember, Lucas reinterpreted stuff or just added stuff to the episodes one through three that werent necessarily factored in for the original episodes (4 through 6). So Lief I dont know how far you can get trying to use single item quote logic to prove things about your interpretation of religion in the films. First off, what the characters say about the force in the movie is only THEIR interpretation. And like a witch doctor or a shaman or a priest in the end it’s a mortal with incomplete knowledge trying to explain something that is most likely more profound then they can grasp. So everything they say shouldn’t be taken literally just as everything an Indian says about the ‘the great god in the sky’ shouldnt be. Secondly, and most importantly… the films just werent 100% consistent. But they were close enough that you can use your own imagination and your own rational to bridge things nicely. Thats how it worked for me. I made a seamless universe out of Star Wars (as I did out of Tolkiens works) and yet when I tell people about my interpretations some people are shocked. And maybe thats how it should work considering Lucas's words as brownj posted.
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Old 01-17-2006, 04:15 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brownjenkins
kinda busy, but read this article lief... it gives some good insight into some of the ideas surrounding the force

obviously, interpretation is up to you... but saying that the force is "a good, personal, intelligent God with a will of its own." is very much your own personal interpretation
(Reads the article) I don't see anything there that challenges what I'm saying.

I know that this is my interpretation. I'm curious how other interpretations might jive with the quotes I've presented from the movies.
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Originally Posted by inked
Is there a blue moon out? I have to agree with BJ on this one, Lief. The Force is impersonal - or so I have thought since the 1970's.
Yeah, but that's because in the 70's, the movies that I'm quoting from hadn't been made yet.
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Originally Posted by Insidious Rex
First off, what the characters say about the force in the movie is only THEIR interpretation. And like a witch doctor or a shaman or a priest in the end it’s a mortal with incomplete knowledge trying to explain something that is most likely more profound then they can grasp. So everything they say shouldn’t be taken literally just as everything an Indian says about the ‘the great god in the sky’ shouldnt be.
That would be true if we were talking about the real world. However, we're talking about a movie. When a movie-maker or an author creates a work, they try to show their audience what they mean in that work. They don't present eroneous information that will lead viewers or readers to false conclusions and then never show that they've led viewers to false conclusions. They do present misleading information sometimes, to throw readers or viewers off, but then they always draw them on course again. They want their audience to understand the state of things. When a film maker or author does leave parts of their world permanently shrouded in mystery (which does happen), they at least let the audience know that it's supposed to be left a mystery.

For example, if George Lucas wanted to show that there are many interpretations of the Force that might be right, he would have purposely constructed divergent Jedi philosophies about the Force in his movies. Instead, he constructs one Jedi philosophy and never has any philosophical debate except the blatantly black and white one between the Sith and Jedi. There is no plausible counter state-of-reality to the one good guy philosophy presented in the movie, so there is no reason to believe Lucas didn't mean the Jedi to be right.
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Secondly, and most importantly… the films just werent 100% consistent. But they were close enough that you can use your own imagination and your own rational to bridge things nicely. Thats how it worked for me. I made a seamless universe out of Star Wars (as I did out of Tolkiens works) and yet when I tell people about my interpretations some people are shocked. And maybe thats how it should work considering Lucas's words as brownj posted.
If you can present me with places where remarks are made that are inconsistant with the evidence I already quoted, I'll accept your point. I know that there are parts of the films that are inconsistant, but I haven't seen inconsistancies in the philosophical branch. So show me inconsistancies between the parts I quoted and other parts, and I'll agree with you.
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Old 01-17-2006, 07:08 PM   #25
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Hey, Lief, I am old and so are my memories of SW. In fact, one could argue that mine are the more correct because closer to the source. What Lucas has done is either validly explored the record and augmented it with time (as say, St John versus St Mark in the Gospels) or some stranger has elucidated the movies to make his or her own points (as per radical critiques of the NT.)

See, the critique crap can be fun when applied to living authors or filmmakers because THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING WHEN THEY DID IT!

Don't you just love it?
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Old 01-17-2006, 11:03 PM   #26
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Lief- you rock and everything man, but analogy can be carried only so far IMO. I love starwars , see the movies annually, play the video games, and granted there are spiritual similarities, but the force cannot compare to my personal God.

That being said isn't it cool how all of our imagninations work on the same story, we all have a different idea of the SW universe in our head.
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Old 01-17-2006, 11:23 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by rohirrim TR
Lief- you rock and everything man, but analogy can be carried only so far IMO. I love starwars , see the movies annually, play the video games, and granted there are spiritual similarities, but the force cannot compare to my personal God.
I would never dream of arguing that it was the same as your personal God! There are many important differences.

1) This "God", the Force, does not send its "son" to die for our sins and save humanity through his resurrection.

2) This "God", the Force, does not transform its followers and make them righteous . . . so far as I know. Rather, seem to become good through more of a Buddhist path, a path to goodness or "enlightenment," or whatever, which one pursues on one's own.

There doubtless are other important differences between Yahweh and the Force. You're absolutely right that the analogy can only be carried so far.
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Old 01-17-2006, 11:44 PM   #28
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great cool, Like I said you totally own I guess we agree, now for philosophy, what does the force think of people like Han Solo who are like SW agnostics and don't believe in the force....
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It seems that as soon as "art" gets money and power (real or imagined), it becomes degenerate, derivative and worthless. A bit like religion.
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Old 01-18-2006, 12:42 AM   #29
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great cool, Like I said you totally own I guess we agree, now for philosophy, what does the force think of people like Han Solo who are like SW agnostics and don't believe in the force....
I don't know that there are any clues from the Star Wars movies. In the Star Wars Expanded Universe, there are a few small clues. The article Brownjenkins linked had a Jedi proverb that said, "There is no death, there is the Force." That certainly means that nobody goes to eternal death. It indicates to me that George Lucas may be thinking more along the lines of, "everyone goes to 'heaven' in the end".
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Old 01-18-2006, 12:55 PM   #30
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But is death an illusion like personality?
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Old 01-18-2006, 03:05 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Lief Erikson
(That would be true if we were talking about the real world. However, we're talking about a movie. When a movie-maker or an author creates a work, they try to show their audience what they mean in that work. They don't present eroneous information that will lead viewers or readers to false conclusions and then never show that they've led viewers to false conclusions.
Im not saying hes giving us “erroneous” information at all. Do you think that when authors write about fictitious natives interpreting lightening as the ‘hand of the gods’ that the author is just lying to us on purpose? Hes just showing us how they interpret this stuff. Otherwise you are saying that they have somehow achieved the same understanding as whatever god involved has.

Quote:
There is no plausible counter state-of-reality to the one good guy philosophy presented in the movie, so there is no reason to believe Lucas didn't mean the Jedi to be right.
I don’t think its simply about who is right or wrong. I think its more about a sort of yin and yang aspect to the universe. That ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ is always present within us and outside of us. I mean the series is ultimately about Vader more then anyone else really. And in him you see this duel aspect perfectly.

Quote:
If you can present me with places where remarks are made that are inconsistant with the evidence I already quoted, I'll accept your point. I know that there are parts of the films that are inconsistant, but I haven't seen inconsistancies in the philosophical branch. So show me inconsistancies between the parts I quoted and other parts, and I'll agree with you.
You’ve already been presented with such by brownjenkins which you disagreed with since you have your own spin on it. But that kind of misses the point anyway. Im not looking to get into a quote tit for tat battle. I think that’s useless quite frankly. I feel the same way for the most apart about people who spend so much time on this site doing it with Tolkiens stuff too. Its fun to be a geek like that sometimes but id caution against taking it too seriously really.

But my point is that if as you say there are inconsistent parts to the film and parts that were just added without originally being fleshed out in previous movies at all then how can you categorically state that inconsistencies are irrelevant to this one aspect of the movie. If you can fudge on page 1 you can fudge on page 100 lief. Don’t always arbitrarily expect things to add up perfectly. Especially perfectly and coincidently exactly as you had in mind. But like I said he gives us enough that we as imaginative semi intelligent beings can bridge the gaps with our own thoughts and own interpretations and it makes complete and perfect sense to us. And again THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE. THIS is the sign of GOOD art. I don’t want to be bludgeoned over the head with a bible or a blue print when Im watching art. At some point you always get yourself into the scaffolding of that world that was never fleshed out. Declaring ‘this is how it is meant!’ is rather pointless to me. And short sighted. Declaring ‘this is how I fill in the gaps’ is wonderfully sublime however.
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Old 01-18-2006, 03:18 PM   #32
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good expression there IR "filling in the gaps" I think thats what is so amazing about or imaginations, majorly cool if you think about it.

inked- what are you talking about? I suppose on the internet the concept of a personality is somewhat illusory,but how do go from that to death?....unless your brain suddenly had a powersurge and you never recover

*thinks philospically that black is white and white is black and is run over at the next zebra crossing*
AGGG its got me *dies*
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Quote:
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...Inspiration is a highly localized phenomenon.
Quote:
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It seems that as soon as "art" gets money and power (real or imagined), it becomes degenerate, derivative and worthless. A bit like religion.
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Old 01-18-2006, 04:24 PM   #33
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rTr, I was referring to the buddhist like background of BJ's frame of reference.

If all is illusion, there is no death, no personality, no world, no food, no rTr!
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Old 01-18-2006, 04:39 PM   #34
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Oh ok gee
thats a bit depressing....
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Quote:
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...Inspiration is a highly localized phenomenon.
Quote:
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It seems that as soon as "art" gets money and power (real or imagined), it becomes degenerate, derivative and worthless. A bit like religion.
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Old 01-18-2006, 10:34 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insidious Rex
Im not saying hes giving us “erroneous” information at all. Do you think that when authors write about fictitious natives interpreting lightening as the ‘hand of the gods’ that the author is just lying to us on purpose? Hes just showing us how they interpret this stuff.
This depends somewhat on what the author is trying to do. If we're talking about a couple natives sitting on a hill, trying to interpret nature, perhaps watching a storm and putting special meaning on it, then I'd probably agree with you. It would be evident that the author was not trying to explain something about the phenomenon but about the people.

However, if the lightning comes hailing down on the natives' enemies, the author is making a point about the phenomenon rather than the people. Also, if lightning comes hailing down on peoples' enemies and afterward the natives talk about why this occurred, their interpretation generally is the accurate one that the author had in mind as correct. Authors try to present truths about their world through characters. George Lucas was doing just that. I think you're connecting his work too much to reality, and not looking enough from Lucas' perspective. Authors like to present the facts about their world. If, instead, they are making points about the people, then they make that clear too. George Lucas was not making any claim that there are differences of philosophy among the Jedi. Rather, they are presented as the pinnacle of knowledge and the Sith as the perversion and the lie. George Lucas' world is a world of absolutes, of blatant good against blatant evil, with little gray area. In the same way, you are presented with truth and lie. George Lucas wasn't going for the realism that you think he is, when you think he's created a world where the everyone is a simple human guessing about the nature of the Force. Rather, Lucas presents what he intends as truth about the Force through his wise Jedi mythological mentor figures.
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Otherwise you are saying that they have somehow achieved the same understanding as whatever god involved has.
Taking this back to the Force . . . yes, I am saying that. I'm saying that, for that's how it's presented in the movie. The good Jedi are supposed to be believed. The evil Sith are supposed to be disbelieved. The world lacks many of layers of complexity that ours has, because Lucas, as a writer, chose to simply shed them, as MANY other writers and movie makers have done before him. He doesn't deal with gray area in his movie series.
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You’ve already been presented with such by brownjenkins which you disagreed with since you have your own spin on it.
I don't believe I put a spin on it. I simply followed what he was saying through to its logical conclusions, if it was to remain consistent with the rest of George Lucas' movie (I'm assuming consistency unless proven otherwise).
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But my point is that if as you say there are inconsistent parts to the film and parts that were just added without originally being fleshed out in previous movies at all then how can you categorically state that inconsistencies are irrelevant to this one aspect of the movie. If you can fudge on page 1 you can fudge on page 100 lief. Don’t always arbitrarily expect things to add up perfectly.
I do expect things to add up well. George Lucas plainly was trying to make them add up well. No writer purposely leaves inconsistencies in his story unless he has no or small choice. He made everything he could add up and flow naturally into the original trilogy. Though it didn't really work out with the Endor situation, he did his best on others, such as Luke's coming to stay with Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, etc. He did his utmost for consistency. Because he had a small number of holes he sought to minimize, that's no reason to blanket his whole work as one big hole we can invent what we like in .
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Especially perfectly and coincidently exactly as you had in mind.
I wasn't looking for evidence to support a point of view. My original perspective on Star Wars was that the Force had a light side and a dark side, and could be used for either good or evil. That it was neutral. But then the prequels came out, and those movies presented new messages that also had to be taken into account. Those new messages changed my perspective.
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I don’t want to be bludgeoned over the head with a bible or a blue print when Im watching art.
A lot of the art comes from all of what he took from various myths, stories and religions that are part of the world's perspective. From those myths comes much of the riches and depth of Star Wars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Insidious Rex
At some point you always get yourself into the scaffolding of that world that was never fleshed out. Declaring ‘this is how it is meant!’ is rather pointless to me. And short sighted. Declaring ‘this is how I fill in the gaps’ is wonderfully sublime however.
Go ahead and fill in the gaps. I like filling in the gaps a lot as well . Just don't make gaps to fill in .
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Old 01-19-2006, 03:40 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Lief Erikson
Also, if lightning comes hailing down on peoples' enemies and afterward the natives talk about why this occurred, their interpretation generally is the accurate one that the author had in mind as correct.
Im not sure that I agree with this. I think that the basic concept can be different from the details. The natives may not understand the details (it wasn’t ACTUALLY god up there throwing thunderbolts) but in his story the author may be saying something about the status of the enemy by having the lightening hit them. In the same way, I don’t think the Jedi necessarily completely understand everything at the same level as whatever god is involved if any in the situation. But I think they get the general idea. And they express it with generalities and incompletions just as we express things with generalities and incompletions in our world when we are talking about religion.

Quote:
George Lucas was doing just that. I think you're connecting his work too much to reality, and not looking enough from Lucas' perspective.
Well I think George Lucas himself said he wanted to be purposefully vague on certain spiritual aspects of his stories for the very reason that he wanted people to ask their own questions and draw their own conclusions. Not shove one particular spiritual aspect complete and without mysteries down our throat. At least that’s what I got from that interview the page before this. But then I do hate quote analysis to prove ones ideas about a story.

Quote:
George Lucas was not making any claim that there are differences of philosophy among the Jedi. Rather, they are presented as the pinnacle of knowledge and the Sith as the perversion and the lie.
Not sure if I agree with that either. My point is that we don’t know for sure whats the deal with the force exactly. If your point is that doing evil leads to chaos and imbalance well Id dare say that’s a concept independent of the force. Lucas seems to present the Force as simply a tool that people can tap into to do things (especially with the whole midi chlorian crap where he seems to be changing mid stream and reducing it down to whats essentially a physiological phenomenon). That some people in the present and in the ancient past have used this tool for evil or greed doesn’t mean this tool IS god.

Quote:
George Lucas wasn't going for the realism that you think he is
Quite a bold statement to make Id say... Very presumptuous of you to declare the thoughts of old George with such assurity… :P

George Lucas was going for a MYTH that reflects REALITY is a much safer statement to make I think. And in that case I don’t see any problem with the main characters not being fully fluent or fully understanding of the entire scope of the spiritual forces in their universe. Again… take from it what you will. But don’t declare THIS is the one and ONLY way it is meant to be. That’s always the easy mistake to make when dealing with art like this.


Quote:
The good Jedi are supposed to be believed. The evil Sith are supposed to be disbelieved.
Why must the sith be disbelieved? They are as knowledgeable as the Jedi. They don’t spend the entire series telling lies. They use their powers carefully just as the Jedi do. Only they use it for evil.

Quote:
He did his utmost for consistency. Because he had a small number of holes he sought to minimize, that's no reason to blanket his whole work as one big hole we can invent what we like in .
Again… I find the whole midi chlorian thing an alteration from the original concepts of the force. Now you can say oh no he had it in mind all along and it works perfectly but id strongly disagree. Ill accept it. The gap isn’t so huge that I cant deal with it. But I think it’s a true inconsistency in the series. If not an inconsistency per se then a shift if you will… a hiccup…

Quote:
I wasn't looking for evidence to support a point of view. My original perspective on Star Wars was that the Force had a light side and a dark side, and could be used for either good or evil. That it was neutral. But then the prequels came out, and those movies presented new messages that also had to be taken into account. Those new messages changed my perspective.
I think the only thing we are disagreeing on is that is the force a tool or is it a benevolent power that can be warped for evil. Im inclined to see it as a tool. And that good and evil is a THEME in the movie not necessarily the same AS the force.

Quote:
Go ahead and fill in the gaps. I like filling in the gaps a lot as well . Just don't make gaps to fill in .
I dont. But Im not gonna create connections I don’t see either. :P
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Old 12-05-2009, 03:49 AM   #37
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Here is a really fascinating entry at Wookiepedia that describes that many different philosophies of the Force, including the Living Force, the Unifying Force, The Dark Side of the Force and the Potentium Force. I don't know how much of this is official, but it is very interesting none-the-less and helps clarify where different people stand on the Force. I like the vague vision of the Force best because it allows us to have fun debates like this, and makes for an interesting theme in the Star Wars universe itself concerning the nature of the Force. Even to them it seems a bit mysterious, and I like that. Anyway, here is the post.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_force

Wookiepedia is a pretty cool resource. Much more in-depth than Wikipedia concerning Star Wars matters.
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:33 AM   #38
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Wookipedia is awesome! :-D

And speaking of different views on the force, many authors have treated it very differently. In Greg Bear's "Rogue Planet," we get the constant injunction that the Force is "not a nursemaid." I always remember that somehow whenever I try to use the Force .
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Old 03-03-2014, 04:48 PM   #39
Lefty Scaevola
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Regarding Dark Side/"Light Side"/balance in the force, consider a quote of ERU, in my signature.

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

Verily, the Dark side is an integral part of the force, which can never be banished, only managed. The recurring blindness of the the "light Side" Jedi to machinations on the dark side, when any 11 year old SCi Fi or even a wargaming fan could do an Admiral Ackbar and see the obvious traps and plots, is because they try to obliterate and banish the Dark Side, and are oblivious to it, rather than carefully watching it both within and without themselves.
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Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 03-03-2014 at 04:56 PM.
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