Paradise Lost

[Rían]

hey, Beren's on!

*bumps thread*

[Lief Erikson]

I didn't notice your response to my post, RÃ*an. Sorry about that! I'll respond sometime soon . Perhaps after the school week, which would be in about four days. I might get to it sooner than that, though. I'm more focused on the debate on the Theology thread at present, but I'll get back to predestination soon.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Quote:
I think this is true also for nonbelievers who will go to hell, and for animals. All of this is designed for good.

For the first part - one can't force good on someone that doesn't want it.

True. However, if God creates the nature, character and personality of each person, and predestines all the events of their lives, he can choose who wants good and who doesn't.

From our perspectives, we do have choice. When I write a book, I create characters and from their perspectives, they do have choices they can make. I never will impose my will over my characters and force them to accept good or evil in an illogical way.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Quote:
As for God's wanting people not to perish, I find this understandable too. God's nature is love. God loves everyone, including the wicked. He knows that it is for the best that these people perish, yet it tears at his heart to do it.


I have a bit of a wilder view of God than you do, and frankly, it took me years to come to it - give me a call in 20 years and we'll talk again! (n.b. - a great book I've read recently is "Your God is Too Safe" by Mark Buchanan). I would disagree that it is "best" that these people perish, given that the Bible explicitly says that it's God's desire that none perish, and He can only desire what is best for us. Perhaps it would be "best" in the sense of "best possible" - e.g., it is better to be in Hell, undeceived, than to stay deceived by thinking you could be God, or God does not exist, or similar things.

Well, I disagree. God clearly says in the Old Testament that he takes no pleasure in bringing judgment on the wicked. He does not desire to judge them, yet he does anyway, because he knows it's for the best for Israel. He predestined Jesus' crucifixion because he knew it was for the best for mankind. In Romans 9, Paul is pretty clear about how God chooses the destruction of wicked people in hell for the betterment of his own creation.

I think that through pain and suffering, people can be truly blessed by God. I know that you believe this too. Suffering and trials can greatly enhance people's relationships with God, and I think that's one key reason why he chooses them for his followers. He chooses wrath and judgment for unbelievers on the Last Day apparently, according to Romans 9, to make his wrath and judgment known to those he has chosen for eternal bliss.

[Rían]

no, I meant "best" for those that perish, not "best" in general.

[Beren3000]

Just bumping this thread for old times' sake

I recently re-read PL and memorized a very beautiful line by Eve (talking to Adam):

Book IV, lines 639,640:

With thee conversing I forget all time,
All seasons and their change - all please alike.

and that of course sets her off on the absolutely wonderful

Sweet is the breath of morn, her rising sweet

speech. Read it here.

One question that comes to my mind, in the part about "all please alike", is about the beautiful ambiguity Milton creates here. Do you think "all please alike" is here used in the sense that everything is pleasant when they're together or is Milton allowing himself poetic license and using "please" as a noun instead of pleasure to mean that Eve forgets all other pleasures when she's with Adam?

[inked]

I think she means that under the presence of Adam all seasons please alike, i.e., their individual charms are equally distributed as less than those he affords by his presence and their conversation.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by inked

I think she means that under the presence of Adam all seasons please alike, i.e., their individual charms are equally distributed as less than those he affords by his presence and their conversation.

Sure there's this meaning, too. However, interpreting "please" as a noun here would work better with the overall parallel structure of the sentence:

all time... all seasons... all please